I just recently picked up a 2010 Z1000 and i am wondering how aggressively some of you guys are riding this bike. Specifically, are any of you hanging off and dragging knee with your new Z? I have found that there isnt much room to hang off and not much space to put the ball of my foot on the pegs and point them off to the side when attempting to hang off and look through the corner. Any photos are video?
Hanging off on the new Z
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Yaw, that part sucks. Being a So Cal guy myself, I took my zed to Big Willow twice, then to Chuckwalla raceway. The lack of farring hurt, I got the CA massive barn door wind screen helped allot. Hanging off this thing sucks. I keep thinking I'm going to find the magic position, but no go. Also in the sucks department, the rear sets push your heels out when on the balls of you feet. Rear sets are my next purchase.
My GSXR, R1 and FZR were way better mouts at the track.
My GSXR, R1 and FZR were way better mouts at the track.
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The best position for the Z is sitting straight up in the seat as designed. I love following a sportbike rider hanging off and trying to get setup for the turn when all he has to do is drive the darn thing through the corner. If you don't believe me watch the Keith Code (California Superbike School) instructional video called "Twist of the Wrist Vol. II". In the video he does tell sportbike riders to hang off to one side (one cheek max) but the part I liked was when he videos different riding styles in the ghost mode. It is a quick snapshot of a rider dragging a knee and one sitting straight up. The difference is very slight and only coming out of the turn a tad faster! Let's face it a Z just isn't comfortable trying to drag a knee. If you only do it once in a while on the weekends in only a few turns you might be better off just sitting up straight. IMO
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Underdog I have to completely disagree. I have watched twist of the wrist several times and yes a half a cheek is what you need. Now with that said you need to understand the reason for coming off the bike. Lean angles. When you sit strait up on your bike and try to run the same speed as you would when others are coming off the bike you will have excessive lean angles. That is a receipt for a low or high side. I see this all the time where I go ride. In example here is what I am talking about.
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Keep in mind the real reason for coming off the bike and dragging knee (doesn't mean you have to knee drag but your already there and should use a feeler to your lean angle) is to have LESS lean angle and MORE grip. When you sit upright on the bike and take a corner fast you will lean more. Example you have 2 riders A & B both riders are on the same bike they both go into lets say mud corner on the hill. (deals Gap) also both riders enter at the exact same speed and go for the same apex. Rider A comes off the bike and drags his knee. Rider B sit strait up and carries the same speed as rider A but with alot more lean angle. Rider B pushes to the outside of the corner upon exit and drags his hero tab. I am not saying that you have to drag a knee but coming off the bike IMO is much safer if you are going to try to take a corner fast. I see this several times a week at deals gap. People don't truly understand how to be "fast" they see some of us local with the same mentality you have and try to stay with us. alot of the times we are helping them pick their bike out of the ditch. And some get hurt really bad. You should watch that video a couple more times to truly understand what he is trying to teach you. Also check out total control by lee parks. alot of really good info that will help even those of us who have rode for as long as we can remember. lol
Here's a pic of my forum a couple of weeks ago
Like I said and a** cheek is all you need but the most important thing here is that your torso goes with your butt. (kiss the mirror) or your just twisted up and not really helping.
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Keep in mind the real reason for coming off the bike and dragging knee (doesn't mean you have to knee drag but your already there and should use a feeler to your lean angle) is to have LESS lean angle and MORE grip. When you sit upright on the bike and take a corner fast you will lean more. Example you have 2 riders A & B both riders are on the same bike they both go into lets say mud corner on the hill. (deals Gap) also both riders enter at the exact same speed and go for the same apex. Rider A comes off the bike and drags his knee. Rider B sit strait up and carries the same speed as rider A but with alot more lean angle. Rider B pushes to the outside of the corner upon exit and drags his hero tab. I am not saying that you have to drag a knee but coming off the bike IMO is much safer if you are going to try to take a corner fast. I see this several times a week at deals gap. People don't truly understand how to be "fast" they see some of us local with the same mentality you have and try to stay with us. alot of the times we are helping them pick their bike out of the ditch. And some get hurt really bad. You should watch that video a couple more times to truly understand what he is trying to teach you. Also check out total control by lee parks. alot of really good info that will help even those of us who have rode for as long as we can remember. lol
Here's a pic of my forum a couple of weeks ago
Like I said and a** cheek is all you need but the most important thing here is that your torso goes with your butt. (kiss the mirror) or your just twisted up and not really helping.
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297 Posts
I love to survey riders. What do they want from riding; how would they like it to feel; how would they like it to look? Want is consistently answered with smoother, faster and increased confidence. Feel runs the gamut through smooth, solid, stable and predictable. Look also ranks smooth above all; followed by fast, which translates into hanging off, knee on the floor. That is the dream. Riders of all classes of bikes, once astride a sportcycle and at a racetrack, feel left out and are often crestfallen until that magic moment finally comes; the krchchshh of getting a knee down. If only the photographer had been in that corner…that lap. In the evolution of our species we’ve gone from knuckle dragging to knee dragging.
An alluring picture of what they imagine or wish to look like can hamstring anyone. These are most often gleaned from dramatic magazine or TV shots stored in their library of mental images and riders envision themselves in these poses as an end unto itself in their quest to improve personal riding prowess. Going for the look without some understanding of its utilitarian underpinnings is, in a word, wrong.
In the evolution of the art of cornering the look of it has had four complete phases--so far. The neat, tidy knees to tank, stretched out on the bike style of the 19-teens through the ‘60s was handed down, eye to muscle memory, as the path of least resistance; you could even say “the natural style” of riding. Phase two: Mike Hailwood let his inside knee come off the tank in the 1960’s and practically created a stock market panic in the riding style etiquette market, it was a huge departure from tradition. Paul Smart, Barry Sheene and others followed. Then, Jarno Saarinen actually moved his butt off the seat a bit which was emulated by many. The fourth phase is credited to and was pioneered by our own Kenny Roberts Sr’s knee down style hangoff in the 1970’s.
Initially this earth-shattering look was quite personal to the rider, each having his own iteration of the new form. Cal Raybourn and Kel Carruthers were halfway guys, still clinging a bit to phase two. Some others had lots of bum off, some with lots of leg and knee off, some rotated around the tank a la Mick Doohan. A few went head and body way down and on the inside of the tank, Randy Mamola style, some hung-off but remained sitting more upright like Kevin Schwantz. The torso positions for our other 500cc world champs of the era; Eddie Lawson, Freddie Spencer and Wayne Rainey were half way between, on the tank but not inside it. Most of the originals also tended to ride forward on the tank and finally, everyone was stationary in their hung-off position once in the corner. The neat part of that era, with all these splinter groups, was that a fan could have instant recognition of the individual’s style and look. Not so today, phase five is upon us.
Conceptually, hanging off couldn’t be simpler. Lower the combined Center of Gravity (CG) of the bike/rider combination and you go through the same corner at the same speed, on the same line with less lean angle: all in all, a brilliantly utilitarian racer’s tool with huge residual benefits; chief among them being an accurate, on-board gauge for lean angle and true to most evolutionary progressions, function now rules the new look and style of road racers.
Take a look; riders are low and inside of their bikes. More and more we see them perfectly in line with the machine, not twisted or rotated in the saddle. The bum off/body twisted back across the top of the bike positioning, which many phase four riders had been doing, was and still is an interesting piece of self-deception. With their torso mass on the higher side of the bike, it not only neutralizes the mass of the hips being off the bike but actually is a negative, raising the combined bike and rider C G--defeating the technique’s main function and purpose. Other notable changes include not being so stretched out as before but not always with the family jewels on the tank either. The one new variable in phase five riders is coming further off the bike mid-corner to exit. You’ll see it on the bum-cam position next time you watch riders like Val Rossi in Moto GP. That and the fore/aft in the saddle differences appear to be the only options available to our phase five evolution racers.
We have five choices now in how we can look and relate to our bikes. If you keep your eye on the style’s function and do some limbering exercises all the benefits of phase five will become apparent as you become comfortable with it. Is it easy? My experience says it is not a natural style at all and riders are hard pressed to assume the new form. If it is your desire to do it I suggest taking your time and step by step, experimenting with each of the stages through which it has evolved. Good luck.
ˆ Keith Code, 2007.
An alluring picture of what they imagine or wish to look like can hamstring anyone. These are most often gleaned from dramatic magazine or TV shots stored in their library of mental images and riders envision themselves in these poses as an end unto itself in their quest to improve personal riding prowess. Going for the look without some understanding of its utilitarian underpinnings is, in a word, wrong.
In the evolution of the art of cornering the look of it has had four complete phases--so far. The neat, tidy knees to tank, stretched out on the bike style of the 19-teens through the ‘60s was handed down, eye to muscle memory, as the path of least resistance; you could even say “the natural style” of riding. Phase two: Mike Hailwood let his inside knee come off the tank in the 1960’s and practically created a stock market panic in the riding style etiquette market, it was a huge departure from tradition. Paul Smart, Barry Sheene and others followed. Then, Jarno Saarinen actually moved his butt off the seat a bit which was emulated by many. The fourth phase is credited to and was pioneered by our own Kenny Roberts Sr’s knee down style hangoff in the 1970’s.
Initially this earth-shattering look was quite personal to the rider, each having his own iteration of the new form. Cal Raybourn and Kel Carruthers were halfway guys, still clinging a bit to phase two. Some others had lots of bum off, some with lots of leg and knee off, some rotated around the tank a la Mick Doohan. A few went head and body way down and on the inside of the tank, Randy Mamola style, some hung-off but remained sitting more upright like Kevin Schwantz. The torso positions for our other 500cc world champs of the era; Eddie Lawson, Freddie Spencer and Wayne Rainey were half way between, on the tank but not inside it. Most of the originals also tended to ride forward on the tank and finally, everyone was stationary in their hung-off position once in the corner. The neat part of that era, with all these splinter groups, was that a fan could have instant recognition of the individual’s style and look. Not so today, phase five is upon us.
Conceptually, hanging off couldn’t be simpler. Lower the combined Center of Gravity (CG) of the bike/rider combination and you go through the same corner at the same speed, on the same line with less lean angle: all in all, a brilliantly utilitarian racer’s tool with huge residual benefits; chief among them being an accurate, on-board gauge for lean angle and true to most evolutionary progressions, function now rules the new look and style of road racers.
Take a look; riders are low and inside of their bikes. More and more we see them perfectly in line with the machine, not twisted or rotated in the saddle. The bum off/body twisted back across the top of the bike positioning, which many phase four riders had been doing, was and still is an interesting piece of self-deception. With their torso mass on the higher side of the bike, it not only neutralizes the mass of the hips being off the bike but actually is a negative, raising the combined bike and rider C G--defeating the technique’s main function and purpose. Other notable changes include not being so stretched out as before but not always with the family jewels on the tank either. The one new variable in phase five riders is coming further off the bike mid-corner to exit. You’ll see it on the bum-cam position next time you watch riders like Val Rossi in Moto GP. That and the fore/aft in the saddle differences appear to be the only options available to our phase five evolution racers.
We have five choices now in how we can look and relate to our bikes. If you keep your eye on the style’s function and do some limbering exercises all the benefits of phase five will become apparent as you become comfortable with it. Is it easy? My experience says it is not a natural style at all and riders are hard pressed to assume the new form. If it is your desire to do it I suggest taking your time and step by step, experimenting with each of the stages through which it has evolved. Good luck.
ˆ Keith Code, 2007.
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I wish I had an instructor to teach my proper body position. I'm nowhere near dragging knee as I only have a few thousand miles of riding experience, but I try to improve every time I ride, but I just don't know body position. I watch movies, I've watched Twist of the Wrist a few times over, but once you are on the bike, it is hard to determine. (At least for me)
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Like the mirror should be center to your body? Not sure I understand the "kiss the mirror" phrase.
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Wow, I figured I'd get a rise out of somebody with that statement!
You are obviously correct. It is simple physics. Lean more, less grip and more outward pressure on the tires. A little dirt or dust on the road and you are in trouble. I'm 57 now so I stay towards the back of the pack when we ride in groups. I watch almost all the guys try hanging off the bike but they take so much time setting up before the turn a Toyota Corola could beat them around the turn and sometimes does. Most people don't have a clue why they do it but it looks cool so if everyone else does... I don't think the Z isn't the easiest bike to drag a knee on. After putting on a Corbin seat I found that it is more saddle shaped and you sit down in it compaired to the stock which is flatter so it s even harder. It is way too much work for a guy my age with 3 back surgeries to pull my a** up and out at every turn. So I get my willies by leaning way over and rolling on the throttle out of the turns. Picking the correct line through the turn is where I make up most my time. I'm sure excessive leaning and outward pressures are one of the big reasons I'm so hard on tires. But there ain't no chicken strips on mine!
I agree it would be fun to do a few track days or more to get the hang of things from personal instruction along with professional suspension setup. Maybe some day.
You are obviously correct. It is simple physics. Lean more, less grip and more outward pressure on the tires. A little dirt or dust on the road and you are in trouble. I'm 57 now so I stay towards the back of the pack when we ride in groups. I watch almost all the guys try hanging off the bike but they take so much time setting up before the turn a Toyota Corola could beat them around the turn and sometimes does. Most people don't have a clue why they do it but it looks cool so if everyone else does... I don't think the Z isn't the easiest bike to drag a knee on. After putting on a Corbin seat I found that it is more saddle shaped and you sit down in it compaired to the stock which is flatter so it s even harder. It is way too much work for a guy my age with 3 back surgeries to pull my a** up and out at every turn. So I get my willies by leaning way over and rolling on the throttle out of the turns. Picking the correct line through the turn is where I make up most my time. I'm sure excessive leaning and outward pressures are one of the big reasons I'm so hard on tires. But there ain't no chicken strips on mine!
I agree it would be fun to do a few track days or more to get the hang of things from personal instruction along with professional suspension setup. Maybe some day.
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1,128 Posts
The problem here, in my opinion, is those big ugly pipes. I removed mine, replaced with the M4 slip-ons, and only barely have a problem with my heels hitting them...
I do ride aggressively, and I can hang off and damn near drag my knee - the only reason I cant ACTUALLY drag it is due to too-tight muscles and leathers. Feels like if I hung off any further, I would FALL off. Besides, Im not trying to drag my knee for kicks - you can just take a corner faster when you hang off, and thats why I do it. When I used to race YSRs, you were dragging your knee all day long! Heck - half the time you turned the thing by putting your knee on the deck and pivoting the bike!!!
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NO had to go threw sun land big tajunga. i know i spelled that wrong:headshake:. past newcombs it is closed also. not much traffic.
I know what you mean... the funky shape of the tank puts your knee in an awkward position when trying to hang off the bike. I have yet to figure out a natural position myself when getting aggressive
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555 Posts
Me too, I was just kidding! Anybody can see you were flying at a real good pace.
There isn't any chicken strips on those tires! Is exactly what I was thinking while watching the video. The tire sure shows the story.
Seemed real fast to me and a lot of fun, not to mention beautiful. It looked like you only opened it up a couple times and man did it fly!
Looks like you have the same problem I do after a run like that. You'll need new tires every 2,000 miles of smiles. Don't take me seriously, nobody else does.
There isn't any chicken strips on those tires! Is exactly what I was thinking while watching the video. The tire sure shows the story.
Seemed real fast to me and a lot of fun, not to mention beautiful. It looked like you only opened it up a couple times and man did it fly!
Looks like you have the same problem I do after a run like that. You'll need new tires every 2,000 miles of smiles. Don't take me seriously, nobody else does.
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109 Posts
+1 problem I'm having is with switch backs. Bike does handle very well.
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