Kawasaki Z1000 Forum banner
1 - 20 of 36 Posts

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Some of you know, most of you don't, in March of 2020, at around 15k miles my original engine in my 2010 developed a 4th gear pop-out issue. This was due to numerous misshifts from 3rd to 4th that progressively got more and more frequent to the point where it eventually rounded off the dogs to where it would no longer stay engaged, just pop in and out of gear repeatedly. This felt a lot like hesitation upon acceleration, kind of like the bike would stumble as if it was cutting spark/fuel, though it only happening in 4th gear was obviously a trans issue, not a spark/fuel issue. These bikes are not smart enough to know what gear they are in.

Just because I needed my bike up an running for an upcoming track day, rather than rebuild the original engine I found a good use 6k miles engine at a local dismantler, for an amazing price, and I ended up swapping this new engine in instead or the long and drawn out process of waiting on parts to rebuild the original engine. I was eventually planning on rebuildilding the original engine, but when your bike is running just fine you tend to lose motivation on doing so, and you instead spend your disposable income on more important stuff, like $1000 Arai helmets and $2800 D-Air suits... 馃ぃ To be fair, I didn't really expect this new engine to develop this same issue, at least not this soon. On this new engine, the gearbox was tighter than a nun's you know what, never really ever had a misshift, perfect gear changes always, easy to find neutral, this engine was behaving as any new bike. Until yesterday that is. Riding home from ACH, accelerating away from a stop sign, I felt the infamous hiccup after I shifted into 2nd gear. Surely this must be a loose chain skipping?!?! ...nope! Surely it happen in other gear too?!?! ...nope, only 2nd! Arrrggg.... here we go again!

Now, I don't think this engine has the same issue as my original engine. I do not recall ever having a massive gearbox crunch, from misshift or otherwise, for the dogs to get rounded off there would have had to be some crunch happening. Especially since 2nd gear is basically never, ever use on track. This bike has a very close ratio gearbox and final drive so anything below 3rd is only used for launching. I'm now kind of suspecting the shift fork pads are worn down (or possibly bent), and the only thing I could think of as causing this would be me constantly trying to shift into an imaginary 7th gear down the front straight at 11k RPMs at 140mph... At that kind of RPM's putting pressure on the shift forks would grind them down quite quickly. But I won't know for sure until I disassemble.

Speaking of which, that's not the engine we are disassembling today. I'm rebuilding my original engine, the one with the 4th gear issue. I've pulled the engine out of storage and cleaned it real good to avoid any contamination after the case is split. I decided to do the rebuild in my kitchen, because for one it;s 100*F outside and I need A/C, and also being in the desert we have a ton of dust floating around that I don't want to make it into my engine. I'm thinking of video'ing the process as this seems to be a relatively common occurrence with the z1k/n1k/v1k platforms, and while it's not a hard job there are steps and tips that need to be followed to do it right. Now I f'ing hate editing videos, so it might be a long and drawn out video, hopefully I can figure out how to speed up or cut out the boring bits, and once the engine is rebuilt I'll do another video on how to swap the engine in and out of the bike.

more to follow...
 

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
already contacted Marc and getting a spring from them.

I've basically fully stripped the engine and here's what i found so far. The shift drum is perfect, like new. 2 out of the 3 forks are again like brand new, but one of them, the one responsible for 4th is completely ground down. Again, I really think it's from trying to shift into an imaginary 7th gear.

85825


Also are all the gears look brand new, no rounded dogs, only rounded dog I see is on this freewheeling collar thing that's attached to "gear output top" 13262I, highlighted in yellow, which engage 4th gear 13262H

85826
 

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
alright, case is now split and tranny is out. Not so simple, unless you find a trick to it. The sealant bond is super strong and they give you no pry points at all. Kept tapping with my deadblow but nada, and I was hesitant and tapping any more firmly on thin walled cast aluminum.

Finally realized that if I put in 2 bolts into the clutch cover bolt holes, one in the lower side and one in the upper side, and then pry against them, pop and they came apart super easy.

Also, I'm working on a video for disassembly, to hopefully help out someone in the future. It looks like an intimidating jobs, but if you got a 10mm and a 12mm socket, you can pretty much tear the whole thing down...

85827
 

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
here is the offending gear, you can see where the corners are sounded off both the dog and the receiving gear

85830

85831


the output shaft layed out on the table

85832
 

Registered
Joined
610 Posts
is there a new part number to replace the old defective one? just curious if kawasaki tried to fix the problem with new parts. guess this failure would suggest not to do the clutchless shifting technique. not that would cause the problem directly, but maybe better safer then sorry approach to the issue. duno.
 

Registered
Joined
1,195 Posts
You will like that spring. It's been my first mod on the last 3 bikes I've had. Shifting feels so much more precise and accurate once it's been installed. The picture that has the full engine.......

Is the engine on the ground, or up on a table? If it's on a table, how heavy was it? Could you lift it, yourself, or did you need help?

The ninja 1000 guys go through the 7th gear search, too. Many of them have high miles. I remember seeing several 4th gear issues. Under 5, but more than 2. Not a lot. If this 7th gear search was a problem, I would expect those guys to have the issue, too, and I really havent seen that. Not much else makes sense.

Do you have a quick shifter?
 

Registered
Joined
365 Posts
is there a new part number to replace the old defective one? just curious if kawasaki tried to fix the problem with new parts. guess this failure would suggest not to do the clutchless shifting technique. not that would cause the problem directly, but maybe better safer then sorry approach to the issue. duno.
I'd be interested to know that too. There appears to be new gearbox parts from 2014 onwards,did this fix the problem,or is it still happening on newer models too?
 

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
is there a new part number to replace the old defective one? just curious if kawasaki tried to fix the problem with new parts. guess this failure would suggest not to do the clutchless shifting technique. not that would cause the problem directly, but maybe better safer then sorry approach to the issue. duno.
no new superseding part number. I don't think there is really anything defective about the part. it's down to the use case. Most of these bikes are ridden gingerly on the street, and if that's the case I don't think most people will have this issue. Maybe clutchless shifting has some responsibility, but I really think it comes down to trying to force it into 7th at super high RPM's that destroyed the shift fork, which then lead to misshifts, which then lead to the rounded dogs and popout. I think if you catch it in time you can get away with just replacing the shift fork, which can be done with the engine in the bike in a fraction of the time that it takes to rebuild the whole tranny.
 

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
You will like that spring. It's been my first mod on the last 3 bikes I've had. Shifting feels so much more precise and accurate once it's been installed. The picture that has the full engine.......

Is the engine on the ground, or up on a table? If it's on a table, how heavy was it? Could you lift it, yourself, or did you need help?

The ninja 1000 guys go through the 7th gear search, too. Many of them have high miles. I remember seeing several 4th gear issues. Under 5, but more than 2. Not a lot. If this 7th gear search was a problem, I would expect those guys to have the issue, too, and I really havent seen that. Not much else makes sense.

Do you have a quick shifter?
The Ninja folks dont really have the same use case as me. They might try shifting into 7th at like 50-60mph on the freeway, at like 4-5k RPMs. While I on the otherhand track this bike pretty much monthly, if not more, and there are some tracks like Big Willow and AutoClub Fontana with a massive front straight, where I can't remember if I'm in top gear or not and I try to force it into 7th at like +140mph and 10k RPMs, which would do a lot more damage, a lot quicker, to the shift fork. I think Kawasaki should have designed in a stopper to prevent the shift drum from being able to be rotated after 6th. When I assemble the engine back, I will study the for actuation and see what exactly happens when you try to rotate past 6th. And I will probably buy a gear indicator from now on.

No, I don't have a quick shifter. The engine is maybe 120-140 lbs. I could lift it by myself but not easily. I dismantled it on the ground so that I had counter spacer to put all the removed parts. I closed the engine back up while I wait on parts so that the bearings dont get contaminated from dust in the house. Anyone doing this job should really consider doing this indoors, as dust and dirt contamination in the garage can ruin your bearings real quick. There a reason why engine builders have "clean rooms".

Regarding the shift spring. Marc suggested that I go for the kit if I can afford it, not just the spring. That includes the star and the pawl as well. Did you upgrade those? At $250 it's a bit more spendy then I was planning on. This rebuild is already going to cost me more than what I could buy a whole low mileage engine for, but this is the original engine that belongs to this frame so I will for sure rebuild it.
 

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'd be interested to know that too. There appears to be new gearbox parts from 2014 onwards,did this fix the problem,or is it still happening on newer models too?
same part, no update. But like I said previous, this is more of a use case issue than a design flaw in the gear itself. I think if there is any design flaw it's in the shift drum, allowing for it to be rotated beyond 6th and then allow pressure to be put on the shift fork which then causes it to wear, which then causes the gears to not fully engage/misshift, which then causes them to round off, which then cause the popout issue. It's a cascading effect, so you cannot really blame it on the rounded gear, something had to cause it. The shift drum is just my current theory, not fact, but I will confirm upon install.
 

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Below is the shopping list so far. Still needed are Threebond TB1216B (I'm using TB1217H as it's almost identical and 1/4 of the price), and then also gasket remover to remove the factory RTV from the case and grooves.

85833

85834
 

Registered
Joined
1,195 Posts
The Ninja folks dont really have the same use case as me. They might try shifting into 7th at like 50-60mph on the freeway, at like 4-5k RPMs. While I on the otherhand track this bike pretty much monthly, if not more, and there are some tracks like Big Willow and AutoClub Fontana with a massive front straight, where I can't remember if I'm in top gear or not and I try to force it into 7th at like +140mph and 10k RPMs, which would do a lot more damage, a lot quicker, to the shift fork. I think Kawasaki should have designed in a stopper to prevent the shift drum from being able to be rotated after 6th. When I assemble the engine back, I will study the for actuation and see what exactly happens when you try to rotate past 6th. And I will probably buy a gear indicator from now on.

No, I don't have a quick shifter. The engine is maybe 120-140 lbs. I could lift it by myself but not easily. I dismantled it on the ground so that I had counter spacer to put all the removed parts. I closed the engine back up while I wait on parts so that the bearings dont get contaminated from dust in the house. Anyone doing this job should really consider doing this indoors, as dust and dirt contamination in the garage can ruin your bearings real quick. There a reason why engine builders have "clean rooms".

Regarding the shift spring. Marc suggested that I go for the kit if I can afford it, not just the spring. That includes the star and the pawl as well. Did you upgrade those? At $250 it's a bit more spendy then I was planning on. This rebuild is already going to cost me more than what I could buy a whole low mileage engine for, but this is the original engine that belongs to this frame so I will for sure rebuild it.

I didn't know Marc had the star. If he has a star, I'll order one. The spring is the best part, but all his parts are good and worth having. Yes, when I bought mine, he didn't have everything or I would have done the full kit.

My friend had a Chinese honda 50 clone. You could try this 7th gear thing, on it, and it would shift....right into 1st. He crashed, several times when he expected 4th, at 50mph, and was actually in 1st. I suppose yours could be worse?
 

Registered
Joined
610 Posts
this is amazing at safely and very quickly removing old gasket material and preparing the surfaces. use with your mini die grinder and mounting pad holder.

there should be Qty (10) in the box.

3M Roloc Bristle Disc White 2" Diameter Grade 120 Grit Industrial Parts House 3M Roloc Bristle Disc White 2" Diameter Grade 120 Grit Industrial Parts House: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

3M 05539 Roloc Disc Pad Assembly, 2 inch https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FW4LC6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_4DVF7FQXM3V6QTBQEKY8
 

Registered
Joined
365 Posts
What exactly does the stiffer spring and the star do?
What's involved in fitting those parts,is it an engine strip job?
ZM's vid didn't work this side of the pond.
 

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
this is amazing at safely and very quickly removing old gasket material and preparing the surfaces. use with your mini die grinder and mounting pad holder.

there should be Qty (10) in the box.

3M Roloc Bristle Disc White 2" Diameter Grade 120 Grit Industrial Parts House 3M Roloc Bristle Disc White 2" Diameter Grade 120 Grit Industrial Parts House: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

3M 05539 Roloc Disc Pad Assembly, 2 inch https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FW4LC6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_4DVF7FQXM3V6QTBQEKY8
I have one of those but IMO it's a bit too aggressive on the factory machine matched aluminum case halves. Perhaps on the oil pan it might be OK, but I don't really want to use anything that is abrasive. On a steel engine block for a car, it's perfect for removing gasket material, I just wouldn't use it on aluminum.

I'm going to use the factory Mercedes gasket remover (MB part number 0109899071). This is what I used when I dropped the oil pan on my E-Class and it removes the factory Reinzosil without the need for any abrasive methods. I would think that the factory ThreeBond Kawi uses is nearly identical. Unfortunately I lent my bottle to my neighbor who went a bit liberal on it and used it all up, so hopefully my local MB dealer has a can that i can buy.
 

Registered
Joined
453 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I've decided that I'm going to drop the pan on the engine that's currently in the bike, and attempt to remove, inspect and replace the 2nd gear shift fork (with the good one from the disassembled engine) with the engine still in situ, it should be possible. To remove the shift fork, the shift drum must come out, and for that you need to remove the complete clutch assembly, the shift rod, shift star, follower, retaining plate and shift fork rods. Hopefully without too much oil ending up dripping in my eyes... One of the shift drum retaining plate allen bolts is blocked by the oil pump drive gear, so a long ball-end allen must be used on an angle.

If replacing the shift fork in this engine fixes the 2nd gear pop out issues, which I think it should since this gearbox has not see any significant crunches (meaning I don't think the dogs are rounded), then that will give me more time to maybe do a bit more thorough of a rebuild on my original engine that is current disassembled, with new rod and crank bearings.

See below for condition of the lower crank bearings. I've spoken to several engine builders, real ones not just keyboard mechanics, and they both said that this is normal wear crank bearings and probably no need to replace them, but "while I'm in there" why not freshen it up to essentially get a brand new zero mile engine out of it.

85842

85843
 
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Top